EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ

REPORT
FROM THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON THE
EXTINCTION OF SLAVERY THROUGHOUT THE BRITISH DOMINIONS

1^st August 1832

EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ.

William Shand Esq. called in; and examined

In which of the West India colonies have you resided? — In Jamaica.

When did you go there? — In 1791

When did you leave the island?-— In 1823.

Did you return after 1823 to the island? — I returned to Jamaica in January 1825, and left it in May 1826.

And since that time you have been residing in this country? — I have.

Had you the charge of any estates in the island of Jamaica? — I had the charge of a number of estates.

What might be the number of negroes under your charge at any one time in the island of Jamaica, upon estates under your charge? — From 18,000 to 20,000.

In what parishes were those estates? — In almost every parish in the island.

In what parish did you principally reside? — I resided in Spanish Town for the first eight months: then in the parish of Vere for about four years; in Clarendon for nearly ten years, then in Vere for about two years; in St. Andrew's for about seven years; again in Clarendon for several years, and in St. Catherine for about three years, immediately previous to leaving the island.

Are you well acquainted with the management of estates, and do you consider yourself as having had the means of acquiring a knowledge of the general character and disposition and habits of the negro population of the island of Jamaica? — I was very long in the management of estates, and had an opportunity of being acquainted with the negro character.

What is the general nature of the provisions which are raised by the negroes, and what is the quantity of time and labour which may be required by them in the cultivation of their grounds for the purpose of planting and raising and selling their provisions? — The variety of provisions raised is very great, and varies in different situations; and the labour requisite also varies considerably in different situations. On mountain estates the negroes usually, when they clear a piece of ground, plant the yam, the plantain, corn, and peas in the same ground, as thick as they can put them in the ground nearly. A negro gets a very great return from the land in consequence of the variety of the provisions put in, and those provisions coming on in succession; the peas are matured in from six to seven weeks, and are removed from the ground; the com is matured in four months, and is taken from the land; the negro yam is about eight months, and gives a second crop of negro yam, of limited quantity, in about twelve months, when it is transplanted. The plantain remains in the ground for from ten to twenty years in good land, requiring very little cultivation. The plantain tree commences to bear generally at the end of eleven months from the time it is put into the ground, and the negro seldom applies any other cultivation but merely to go through the ground with a cutlass, and cut the jungle as it comes up once a year. Humboldt remarks, in his Account of New Spain, that the same extent of ground that will produce food for one individual in Europe, if cultivated in wheat, will yield in the plantain food for twenty-five people; but when we consider the vast variety of vegetable matter put into the ground and produced in a limited time, and the extremely small cultivation or labour requisite, the difference must be very great, and much beyond what is pointed out by Humboldt. I should like to mention another historical fact, in order to confirm the circumstance; after reading Dr. Arnott’s Treatise on Heat, and coming to London, I called upon him and mentioned what I now relate to the Committee, adding, that I believed, after a negro had established a certain portion of the plantain, one day's labour in a year would be found sufficient to give him food for the whole year. His observation was, that he had never been in the West, but he had frequently been in the East, and from what he knew, he had no doubt that the circumstance I related was perfectly correct.

Will you enable the Committee to form an estimate of what is the actual time and labour which are required by the negro for the purpose of planting his crop, and perfecting and taking care of it? — I have already mentioned, I imagine, what is sufficient in regard to that species of cultivation; but in other parts of the country the negroes food varies, they require more labour to procure it.

How are the negroes principally fed in the parish of Clarendon? — In the mountain parts of Clarendon, and in the interior of Clarendon their provisions are generally similar to what I have mentioned, and put in in that way.

It is stated by other witnesses that there is a quantity of ground, the crops of which are regularly given to the negroes? — I have never heard of any corn being grown in the mountain districts of Clarendon for the use of the negroes; in the low parts of Clarendon, on many estates, Guinea corn is raised by the negroes generally, and distributed during the dry season of the year, or when it is thought requisite, in addition to what the negro may rear from his grounds.

That corn is then raised by the master? — It is raised by the general population of the estate in the master's time.

Are you acquainted with the quantity of provision grounds generally allotted to the negroes upon an estate? — It varies much upon different estates; on some estates it is more limited than on others. On my Killitt's estate in Clarendon, to a population of about 650 people, I think there is about 4,000 acres of land, which they generally go upon, and perhaps 6,000 acres of land that they may go upon, the additional 2,000 acres being tolerably good provision ground; but there are 4,000 or nearly 4,000 acres of good provision land.

Are you able to state to the Committee, from your knowledge of the extent of provision grounds generally in the possession of the negroes, either by the actual allotment of them, or by the license they have to take as much as they please, whether there is an abundance of provision grounds, and does that admit of their raising sufficient means of subsistence for themselves, and a superfluous quantity of provisions that they carry to the market and sell for themselves, and whether it is necessary for them to encroach on the Sabbath-day for the purpose of cultivating their grounds to raise a good quantity of provisions? — I should think in the least favourable situation with which I am acquainted on the Clarendon Mountain estates, he cannot require more than six days to raise more than is necessary for him during the year; of course he has more time and can rear more than sufficient without interfering with Sabbath-days or with holidays.

And that is the case in Clarendon Mountains, which you consider the least favourable situation for the negroes? — Yes.

Are you aware of the extent to which they sell the provisions when they are more than necessary for their subsistence? — No, I cannot speak definitively to that; it is as little the practice to interfere with the negro rights, or with what he rears in any shape that one does not become acquainted with the circumstance so much as may be imagined. Where a negro is industrious, he may, no doubt, rear provisions of considerable value; he appropriates a great part of the provisions which he raises to feeding his pigs and poultry; for instance, he feeds his fowls with the yam, as we do with potatoes in Scotland, and every species of the other provision is adapted for his pigs.

What are the allowances which the owner gives to each slave, exclusively of the provision grounds that he has? — He gives him an allowance of clothing and furnishes his tools of every description, almost every necessary that he requires, but the negro does not rely upon what the master gives him, and an industrious negro of course provides for himself many comforts.

Is there an allowance of fish? — I think I have sent there about 450 or 500 barrels for about 1230 negroes, the usual allowance is one barrel to three negroes of all ages; and they are supplied with any quantity of salt that they choose to ask for.

Are you aware of any parishes where it is necessary for the negroes, in order to carry their provisions to market, to travel for a distance of 25 or 30 miles? — No; I do not think they have occasion to travel half that distance in any situation to find a market, but to go to the towns they would have occasion to travel much further; there are markets in every district.

Are you aware of instances of persons from the towns coming to those intermediate markets and buying the provisions of the negroes, and thus preventing the necessity of the negro going to the town to sell his provisions? — Yes; in Clarendon market, the negroes have a market once a week at upon the river, and I believe there are other situations where they have stands for markets in the same district.

In what manner are the aged and infirm persons upon an estate, as well as the children before they are capable of working provided for; on whom does the care and provision of those persons devolve? — They are generally attended to by their own families, and when they have none there are nurses appointed for those who are sick, or unable to provide for themselves, and if a negro has not the means of subsistence the master provides for that negro.

What is the age when they are considered no longer able to provide for themselves? -- The age varies; one negro may last much longer than another as people do in this country but the time that a negro’s labour goes to is not longer I believe on average than that of a native of this country; I should say that after the age of fifty a great many negroes are watchmen and employed in a way that does not require any manual exertion, and that there are very few in the field after sixty in any estates.

Is it true that the driver upon an estate is selected on account of bodily strength; and, if ft be not so, in respect of what qualities is the selection of the driver made? — It is not at all necessary that a driver should have bodily strength, a driver is selected generally for his intelligence, in being a more correct negro in his conduct than others; capable of directing the work and regulating the business of an estate.

What is the general practice that prevails with respect to the working of negroes during the crop time at night; is it the fact that in the island of Jamaica a negro has only six hours rest four months in the year? — I cannot say that is exactly the case.

What is the proportion of night work which a negro has upon an estate during crop time? — I do not know that there are any estates where double spells are not regularly made out; in that case the negro has only six hours sleep every second night for the six nights in the week, that is, three nights in the week he is upon spell.

Do any of the white people sit up also? — Yes, as long as the negroes; I kept spell in the boiling-house for four crops, and two on another; and endeavoured to keep my eyes open occasionally for eighteen hours and a half out of the twenty-four, which was longer than the negro did.

You yourself commencing with the business? — Yes, but if any one came into he boiling-house before daylight in the morning he would generally find us all asleep. .

What proportion of the whole gang of negroes is employed in the night-work? — On a small estate, where there are a limited number of negroes, there may be fifteen on spell at the same time.

What is the proportion of the whole body of negroes who are employed in the night? — In that case tnere would be thirty for the night; and if there were double spells here would be sixty.

What proportion would those sixty be of the whole number on the estate; what proportion of the whole number upon an estate is generally employed in night-work? — I should say, on a small estate, to make out two double spells would require from fifty-eight to sixty negroes; where there are a limited number of negroes, they put a more limited number on spells. Where there are four coppers, they would not have more than two negroes to skim the copper; if there were a great number of negroes on the estate, they would have one negro to each copper.

What is the description of work that those persons would have to engage in who do sit up at night? — On a small estate, I should suppose that there may be from two to three negroes skimming the copper; a negro skims the copper, and after a time puts down his skimmer and rests himself, but he very seldom sits, he is not allowed to sit down during the time he is there.

How are the other fifteen negroes employed in the case you have just mentioned? — There is one attending the upper coppers, where there are clarifying vessels, that is, three upon the coppers, or from three to four, according to circumstances; there are usually two feeding the mill, two green trash carriers, two in the stoke-hole or fireplace, there is one man making the fire, and a trash carrier and a boatswain of the mill.

What is the description of the field work which, according to the ordinary course of planting is carried on at the time that crop is going on and the night-work taking place? — Cutting and carrying the canes, tying the canes, and carrying them to the mill.

Is there any cane hole digging at that time? — When there is cane hole digging the mill usually stops; but on many estates they do not put in any canes during crop; on most estates the cane land is opened previous to crop; on estates in the low country, a proportion would be put in during crop, and of course the mill stops when any thing of that kind is to be done.

Then cane hole digging, which is represented as the severest labour that the slave has to perform, is not carried on at the same time with the crop which requires night work? — No, it is very rare, if ever, that it is.

What is the general condition of the slave population during crop time: It has been represented that they are so exhausted, that it might be discovered by a person passing by whether they had been up or not? — I think it is quite the reverse; they look belter in crop time than at any other season, and the worst negroes always look sleek at the crop time, because a lazy negro who does not work his ground as he should do, then benefits by die cane juice.

With respect to cane hole digging, will you be so good as to state to the Committee what proportion of the labour of an estate that may be in the course of a year. Are the Committee to understand that that species of labour is required upon all estates, and that when it may be required upon any estates it extends over the whole cultivation of an estate? — A limited part of the estate only is planted in one season, even where there is but a second cane from the plant reared there can be only one-fourth part of the field planted in one season.

And upon some estates no cane hole digging is required? — On some estates that species of labour is performed by hired labourers; on other estates where there are a greater number of slaves, a portion now is done by hired labourers. I have no hired labour except upon an estate where the number of slaves is limited; there all the cane hole digging is done by hired labour.

Should you say from your experience of the character and condition of the negro population, that this is a correct representation of them: 'They exhibit that sort of gloom which would necessarily arise from a whole class of society being oppressed, without any I hope of rising"? — No, I think it quite the reverse.

Is that a correct representation of the general appearance and condition of the negro at any one period of the year? — No, I should say that the negro upon the whole does not exhibit a gloomy appearance, and that that population are more cheerful in their dispositions and have less care about them than the labourers of this country. Of late the negroes may have become discontented from circumstances, and exhibit more of that appearance since I left the country; that I cannot speak to.

Speaking of the appearance of the negro population generally, in the island of Jamaica at the time you left it, should you describe them as a gloomy people, exhibit such sentiments as those that are described in the question that was just now put to you or should you consider them as exhibiting the appearance of a contented and happy people? — I consider that they are more contented and are better provided for than me lower class of people in this country or Scotland, and that their labour is much lighter.

Will you state to the Committee what is the general course of life of the negro after he comes from the field; does he go to bed as a person who is tired and exhausted by the labour of the day; or is it his practice to sit up and enjoy himself in scenes of conviviality after his day's work is over? — Yes; and it is very usual for young negroes to go to neighbouring estates, and go for considerable distances during the night; very often there is too much of the thing, which may render them less able to perform the exertion of the next day; they dissipate and go abroad much.

Have you had your attention ever directed to the conduct and habits of persons, who having previously been slaves, have become emancipated? — Yes.

State to the Committee in what manner they maintain themselves? — The great mass of them are very idle, keep slave women very frequently, and are, in a great measure, supported by the slaves.

Are the Committee to understand that many instances have fallen under your observation in which slaves, after having been emancipated on an estate, settle upon that estate, or in its neighbourhood, with the slave women upon the estate? — I do not recollect any instance where a slave has been emancipated on any one of my own estates, where he has removed from the property, and as they were connected with the slaves generally on the estate, I never removed them from the estate, and I never exacted any thing from them in consequence of living upon the estate.

Were you one of the executors of Mr. Simon Taylor? — Yes,

Were there any emancipated slaves working upon the estates of Mr. Simon Taylor? — Yes, I fancy there were; I do not recollect instances of emancipated slaves; but there must have been slaves living upon the property who had been emancipated.

Do you recollect any of them that were emancipated during Mr. Simon Taylor's lifetime, or after his death? — No, I do not recollect any; but there was a family applied to me, and desired to be emancipated; I told them that there might be some difficulty in that, from the manner in which they were left; but no doubt it might be done, and I should write to their master upon the subject; but I explained to them, at the same time, that they must remove from the estate if they were emancipated, and remove their children and negroes, (for they had negroes of their own), and when I mentioned these circumstances to them, they seemed to decline taking their freedom, and said nothing more to me upon the subject. I understand they afterwards applied to Mr. McPherson, my successor, in the way they did to myself, and he gave the same answer; but finding that they would have to remove from the estate, they did not say any thing more upon the subject, and they are slaves upon the estate now I believe.

Have you known any of the free blacks, who have become emancipated, afterwards work in the field? — No, I do not recollect a single instance.

Has any observation which you have made, of the general habits of free persons of colour in Jamaica, enabled you to state to the Committee an opinion as to the probable disposition which the negro population would feel to engage in free cultivation for wages? —I know no instance in which they have wrought for wages; of course, if they were disposed to do so, they could get the same hire as is given to slaves of the same description.

Are you acquainted with a district of coffee, called Cavaliers? — I had a plantation for some years, and lived upon it, on the side of the mountains that overlooked that district of country, and I have travelled very much through that district of country, but I never was upon the particular spot.

Is it not in the neighbourhood of Pepine estate? — It is a considerable distance from Pepine estate; I suppose about ten or twelve miles.

From your connexion with that part of the county, if there had been a settlement there of free negroes exhibiting those habits of industry as to have sufficiently attracted the attention of a person, and induced him to represent that settlement as exhibiting an instance of free negroes working for wages, and manifesting habits of industry which would justify him in the expectation that slaves, if emancipated, would work for wages, do you believe that you must have been acquainted with such a settlement?— Yes; I must have heard of it, or known something of it; I do not think there could have been any considerable population.

When did you last see this estate of Cavaliers? — I never was upon the particular spot; I know the district of country, and have travelled through it in different directions.

When did you last travel through it? — I dare say it is twelve years back.

Do you mean to say that no part of that district of country called Cavaliers is attached to Pepine estate? — It is about ten miles distant from Pepine estate; it is in a district called Above Rocks.

You know nothing of it for the last twelve years? — No; I have not been in that district of country for the last twelve years.

But you know of no instance in course of your experience in the island of Jamaica, of any considerable number of emancipated slaves working in the fields for wages? — No; in Above Rocks there is a free coloured population of that description but I believe they live very much by pilfering the neighbours of their coffee.

Veneris, 3® die Augusti 1832 William Shand, Esq. called in; and further examined.

ARE you aware of any slaves, after they have been emancipated, working in the field for wages? — No, I do not recollect a single instance of one individual.

And have you known in the course of your experience, instances of a considerable number of slaves who have been emancipated? — I do not immediately recollect any great number so emancipated at one time, but I have known a great number of individual slaves, who were emancipated at different times.

In what way did those individual slaves ordinarily employ them themselves 7 — Many lived with the negroes upon the estate from which they were emancipated.

That is, the slaves emancipated were field slaves, attached to a particular property? — Yes.

If they had been field slaves, accustomed to work, and attached to a property, upon their emancipation, the Committee are to understand that they ordinarily lived upon the negro grounds of the estate? — Yes; but I would not exactly say that the field slaves, who were emancipated did not work for a sufficiency for their own subsistence; they are very frequently of a different description from field people who are emancipated, and those very commonly live upon and by means of the labour of the slaves of the estate, and upon their family connexions.

In consequence of their connexion with those upon the estate who still remain in slavery upon that estate? — Yes.

Upon any estate with which you were connected, were there any field slaves emancipated so; and does your observation apply to them in particular? — I do not remember instances where there were many emancipated, only a few individual slaves from the field; but it is difficult to bring such a circumstance to one's mind immediately.

Were you acquainted with Mr. William Taylor, formerly of the house of Simpson & Taylor, in Jamaica? — I know two Mr. William Taylors in that house, the father and son, and the Uncle Mr. Robert Taylor.

Were you acquainted with Mr. Taylor prior to your leaving the island? — The younger Mr. Taylor I was acquainted with. The house of Simpson & Taylor did a good part of the mercantile business for the estates of which I had the direction for several years, and I knew this young gentleman.

From your long residence in the Colony, and the nature of the estates and slaves under your charge, should you consider that Mr. William Taylor, having charge of the estates of Mr. Wildman, with 700 negroes upon them, for two years and a half, had placed himself in a situation which made him competent to speak as to the general character of the slave population in the island, or as to any plan of emancipation, or as to the probable effects of emancipation on the slave population at large? — I do not recollect hearing that he was concerned for any estates during the period previous to my first leaving Jamaica in 1823; but when I returned, I understood that he had entertained some visionary ideas of bringing the negroes into a different state, and treating them differently from other people; it was not generally well thought of there, or that it would turn to any advantage.

One of your estates was in Clarendon, was it not, some where near Mr. Wildman's estate? — I have two estates in Clarendon, neither of them adjoined Mr. Wildman's estate; but I acted for an estate belonging to Mr. Dawkins adjoining Low Ground.

Is Low Ground Mr. Wildman's estate? — Low Ground is Mr. Wildman's mountain estate, and the provision grounds and cane fields of the two estates are adjoining I frequently in travelling to other estates rode through the negro grounds occasionally, and at other times through the cane fields and works of Low Ground.

Were you in the island when Mr. Wildman was there? — I am not aware that Mr. Wildman was there when I was in the island; I rather think that he had been there, but returned to this country.

Was Mr. William Taylor, or any other person, having for two years and half charge of three estates, with 700 negroes upon them, in a situation which rendered him competent to form an opinion on the general character and habits of the whole negro population in the island? — I should say that a man, if he is observant and attends to business, may learn a good deal in three years; but I believe not many learn much in that time, particularly those who are visiting estates occasionally, and are not solely occupied in the management of property.

Do you consider him competent to form a judgment of the character of the negroes in the island from his acquaintance with the character and habits and dispositions of the negroes under his particular charge? — No; I should say that not any person becomes acquainted with the negro character so perfectly as a person who has been placed in every situation with the negro, and been regularly instructed as a planter.

By being regularly instructed as a planter, you mean commencing as an overseer? — For instance, a person who is concerned in estates, and is placed in the situation of attorney, has not the same opportunity of knowing the negro character as the person who stands in the field with the negro, or who has seen him in different situations where, the negro will open his mind without restraint.

Have you considered the question whether the slave population in the island of Jamaica are likely, if they were emancipated, to work for wages in the cultivation of sugar? — I have already answered that I have known of no instance of one individual slave working in the field after he had been emancipated, or working regularly in a continuous way for wages, and I am not aware of any instances that have taken place to give reason to think that he will labour in that way.

Should you assign as a reason for having known no instance of a slave, after he had been emancipated, working in the field for wages; the feeling on the part of the emancipated person, that it was a degradation to work in the field, or should you attribute it to any habits or dispositions of the negroes, or to any other cause that would render it improbable that he would work for wages if he was a free person; if so, state what your reasons are? — I would attribute it to the peculiar temperament and habits of the negroes; and if I contemplated any such measure I would consider the practical results that have taken place hitherto, and not go upon speculative or theoretic ideas which a man may entertain in a case where he has no experience, of the results being such as he might think desirable.

What motives would there exist in the negro, supposing him to be free, to endure the labour of free cultivation? — One would suppose that the negro had the same inducement as any other man to exert himself and to acquire property, but we do not find this to be the case. It is a remarkable fact, that in Scotland many of the labouring class perform a great deal more work when the meal and potatoes are dear than when they are cheap. If the necessaries of life are dear they are compelled to labour so as to obtain food enough; but if the necessaries of life are at a less cost many of them labour no more than is necessary to procure sustenance.

Are the means by which a slave in the island of Jamaica might obtain his subsistence so accessible to him, and so readily obtained, that hard labour is not essential for the purpose of procuring his subsistence? — No; I think I have already said in my evidence, that, in many situations, the slave, after he has established a certain proportion of provisions of a particular description, may rear food for himself by one day's labour in a year; and I know of few situations, perhaps there are not any, where he may not support himself by means of one week's labour, I fancy much less.

Then the Committee are to understand that, if the slave were emancipated, in his emancipated state he would not require to hire himself for wages in order to procure his subsistence, supposing him to retain his grounds? — Extremely little exertion is necessary for the purpose, and a negro may almost subsist upon what nature produces; for instance, wherever what they term the yam is planted (they have another name for it, the …… ) it remains in the ground and continues to produce for nine months in the year continuously, and for ever, so far as I know; and the negro, by taking the trouble to gather those yams, may collect as much in the course of a couple of hours as will serve him for a week; and then the fruits, of which the negroes are fondest, and which are most nutritious of any in the country, grow in almost any situations in which they are sown. There is the mangoe, which requires no cultivation; there is the or vegetable marrow, as it is called, which grows spontaneously in the negro’s ground or in any situation where he chooses to put the seed into the ground, without any cultivation or any trouble.

Then, as far as the natural wants of life are concerned, the negro would be able to supply those wants without resorting to field labour, would he not? — I should say, that the same observation as my friend Doctor Amott makes use of in his Treatise on Heat, where be says that a very small degree of labour of a person in tropical climates is sufficient to produce what is necessary for him, is perfectly applicable to Jamaica or any other situation.

When you left the Island of Jamaica, did you observe among the great body of the population of Jamaica, any desire to supply their artificial wants? — No, by no means; several of the negroes are fond of showy things, and of showy dresses, and some of them exert themselves to obtain those; others obtain them by means of the labour of other negroes, as the head people, who can often get the labour of other people in his master’s time; for instance, my head labourer can often send his negro away to the field without my knowing it, and often does so; that man has the means of obtaining almost any thing that he can require.

Are cut decanters, or articles of that description, so generally used among the negroes, as would justify you in arguing from the instances that have occurred of their having those luxuries, or those artificial wants, that that taste was general? — Every negro may have such if he chooses to be industrious, but the instances are comparatively few to the whole number of negroes.

Should you say that the existence of artificial wants on the part of the negroes was so general as to justify you in believing that if they were emancipated, notwithstanding they could famish themselves with the ordinary means of subsistence without any labour, or without much labour, still they would be disposed to work for wages in order to gratify their desire for artificial wants? — No, I do not think they would by any means; I do not think the result would be such generally.

Is that opinion the result of the observation which you have made in the course of your experience? — Yes; I do not think that the negro is of that temperament, or has acquired those habits or desires which would induce him to labour in order to obtain articles of luxury, or even what the master supplies him with; I would instance the exports of Hayti, and the value of what a labourer earns in that country, according to the exports of that island, I think Inginac lays down the population at between 900,000 and 1,000,000.

When do you say that was the population of Hayti? — I do not recollect exactly the period ; it is laid down by Inginac, Mr. Mackenzie mentions that it was so.

Are you aware that by that Report of the Assembly the population of Jamaica was taken in 1820 at 940,000? — I do not know what any report from Jamaica states the population at, but Inginac, a native of Hayti, stated the population at about that number, and he then takes the exports; I think the utmost exports that are laid down for it is 32,000,000 of coffee; they produce little else; and taking the value of that coffee in the London market a few years back, and the extent of the population, supposing that there are 100,000 people employed otherwise than cultivating the soil, I reckon they would not have 7s. sterling a head per annum, which would not clothe them with one suit of British manufactures, or furnish them with any other necessaries; and I am reckoning that they receive one-third of the proceeds of the whole produce, but I do not know that they receive so much.

Then you consider that if emancipation took place in the present state of the negro population in Jamaica, they would not have the disposition to apply themselves to work for wages? — I have no reason to think that the result would be different from the conclusions 1 have drawn in consequence of the observations I have made in regard to individuals who have been emancipated in Jamaica, or in regard to what has been related of the people at St. Domingo, or of the French negroes at the time they were declared free in the other islands, or in the other instances that may be mentioned; the American negroes for instance in Trinidad, they have not acquired industrious habits nor are they a useful or industrious population.

What is the manner in which, principally, the free persons whom you have known to be emancipated employ themselves? — Some few of them are tradesmen; there are a good many tradesmen, both coloured and black, in the town of Kingston, and other towns in the country; many of them live with the slave women on estates, cohabit with them, and are extremely idle. There are others in different parts of the country, who are settled upon the different roads from the estates in the interior of the country to shipping places, and those, I believe, live mostly by receiving stolen produce from the slaves as the carriages pass to the different ports; many of them live in dry and barren situations, where it is impossible to rear provisions for themselves.

What do you consider would be the effect of a declaration that the slaves in the island of Jamaica were free from a certain day? — I cannot imagine that the results would be otherwise than what has been experienced in other cases; they would be in the same situation as the negroes in St. Domingo, and they would fall into the same state as did the slaves in other French islands.

Do you believe that many of them would be induced, by the offer of wages, to continue in the cultivation of sugar estates? — For instance, there are no sugar estates cultivated in St. Domingo at present, there is some partial half cultivation; I believe the only thing produced is syrup rudely prepared, which is mostly converted into a coarse spirit called fafia.

Will you lead the Committee to understand whether the answer you gave to the preceding question is the result of the observation which you have had of the negroes under your charge; the question is, what is the inference you draw from your knowledge of the character of the negro population in the island of Jamaica? — I have mentioned already that I do not know one instance of a negro working in the field after he had been emancipated; and I know very few instances where their labour has been continuous in any way, or such as would render them useful members of society, or lead them to cultivate sugar, or any thing indeed, but especially sugar, which requires more labour and attention than any other species of cultivation.

Have you had occasion to observe the general conduct of free persons of colour who employ themselves as mechanics in the towns; do you observe them continuously working when they have made a sum of money, or have you observed, on the contrary that they have worked till they have got a sum of money, they have ceased to work and not resumed their work till they have spent that money? -I believe that is generally the case, and we know that very few acquire property; in the case of most of the brown and black people that have property, it has been bequeathed to them, or they have got it in some other way, but not by their own industry.

You would apply that observation to the persons of colour in Jamaica who are known to be possessed of considerable property? — Yes; I know of very few negroes who have acquired property by their own exertions; there may be some, but at this moment I do not recollect an instance.

Have you seen the confession which has been made by one of the persons who was engaged in the recent insurrection, in which he makes the following statement? "I will tell this only: we were all sworn upon the Bible to do our best to drive white and free people out of this country; the head people among all of us negroes were then to divide the estates among us, and to work them with the common negroes, who were not to get their freedom, but work as they now do; I might as well tell the truth, though they would have had bad treatment from us, we could not treat them as white people now treat them; we would have been obliged to rule them hard to keep them down.” From your knowledge of the general character of the negroes, do you consider that such would be the effect consequent upon the general emancipation of the slave population, that in the first instance, some of the head people amongst them would desire to retain the estates in their possession and to work the other negroes? — I have no doubt, whatever their professions or whatever they may say at present, that such would be the result; and those who were most knowing or had most physical power, would endeavour to keep down the others.

Do you believe it would be possible, if the slave population were emancipated in Jamaica, for the white and free coloured people to remain in Jamaica? — I have no idea that they could; and I think it is tolerably evinced by what has taken place there and elsewhere.

Are there any means which would suggest themselves to you, by which those consequences might be averted, such as by the establishment of a constabulary force in different parts of the island, or a constabulary police? — No; I have no idea that such could be effected by any thing of the kind.

Are you aware of any increased means of religious instruction which have been furnished by the legislature of Jamaica and by private individuals within the last few years? — Yes; several years ago the means of religious instruction by the Established Church was double in the island of Jamaica, and considerable encouragement has been given to the instruction of the negroes.

Do you mean to say that that has been done at the expense of the island or of the mother country? — I mean of the colony, and individuals have subscribed for places of worship; there are a great many dissenting places of worship also.

And places of worship of the Established Church? — Yes; my brother and myself subscribed largely towards the establishment of a Presbyterian place of worship in Kingston, and I had a seat in that place of worship for several years, although I never lived in the parish.

Do you know enough of the general circumstances of the people of Jamaica, and particularly of those who concur in subscribing to those places of worship, as to be able to tell the Committee whether it is a true representation of their motives that they incurred this expense for the mere purpose of making it appear to the people of England that they were desirous of promoting the religious instruction of the negroes? — No, I fancy that they were quite as sincere in their motives in subscribing as people of any other country in similar cases; and I believe that more improvement has taken place in the slave population of Jamaica lately than any advances made in the same period of time in any country in the world.

It has been stated by a person describing himself as a minister of religion, that he believes that those establishments were extended, and those subscriptions engaged in for the ostentatious purpose of giving an appearance in England of a desire to afford religious instruction in the island of Jamaica; do you consider that warranted by any thing in the conduct of the people who engaged in those subscriptions for the support of religious establishments? — No, I certainly think not.

Were you at all acquainted with the general conduct of the missionaries during the time you were in the island of Jamaica? — I had no personal acquaintance with any of the missionaries: I was no advocate for encouraging them, because I always considered it a most impolitic thing to make the slave of one religion and the master of another; and I know that some of the missionaries were of very bad character, at the same time that I believe that there are a number of good men among them.

Was religious instruction administered to the slave by any people under your charge? — Yes, there were people employed by me for the special purpose of teaching the people on my properties; the curate of Clarendon reads prayers once a week on my properties for 100l. a year, at least that was the case when I was there, and so far as I know it continues still.

Does that practice prevail on other estates in the island? — I do not know; I do not believe that it was much the practice to employ curates in that way. About 1813 the rectors of several parishes wrote to me on the subject, to know whether I would allow them to go upon the estates and read prayers to the negroes. I gave every facility, and instructed the overseers in my employment to bring up the negroes at any time that the parson of the parish or the curate chose to be there for the purpose of instructing the negroes.

Are the Committee to understand, that though you may have this inclination to give religious instruction to slaves under your charge, there is not a correspondent inclination on the part of the other proprietors to pursue the same course? — 1 should say that there is, and I have no knowledge of any one who has discouraged it; but in the present state of the country, our means are so limited that no man can afford the expense to make any new establishment or new arrangement for the benefit of the slave.

What do you mean by the means of the country being so limited: you tie not speaking of any limited means of the country which would prohibit the proprietor of an estate from allowing his slaves from receiving religious instruction? — No; but I mean to state that the imposts on produce are so heavy, and if we are obliged to give the slaves more than we have been accustomed to give, as is proposed in the Order of Council, we cannot make any new establishments or new arrangements for their benefit.

Is there any thing in the situation of the country or in the disposition of the proprietors of Jamaica, which should deter them, now from allowing clergymen to come upon their estates and give them religious instruction? — No, none; I mean to say that we cannot extend instruction if pressed on by additional and unnecessary imposts, as we would otherwise do.

You are alluding to the erection of places of worship? — Yes, and the expenses of contributing to those places of worship or instruction of any kind, which must be attended with additional expense.

Is oral instruction or reading that which is communicated under your sanction to the slaves on the estates of which you have the charge? — I believe it is oral instruction, and I do not think that the negro should have any thing but oral instruction until he ii further advanced in civilization, and more improved until he is at present in his habits and general character.

Do you consider that if religious instruction be communicated to the slave population by persons of discretion, and who abstain from all topics which are calculated to create feelings of discontent or disaffection in the mind of the slave towards hit owner, that there is a difficulty on account of that religious instruction, of retaining the slave in a state of slavery? — I consider that it would benefit the slave to give him instruction in a proper manner, and that it would be by no means inimical to his remaining in his present situation, or to his performing his duties in his present situation.

Do you consider that any jealousy or suspicion which was entertained of the conduct of the missionaries, arose from an apprehension that the instruction that they were conveying, was not of so discreet a character and marked by such abstinence of the doctrines of the nature which has been alluded to? — I myself have entertained doubts of the intentions of many of the missionaries who went out, and who professed to instruct the negroes; but I have no doubt that there were several men of character among them; it was exceedingly difficult to discriminate, and therefore I did not encourage any to instruct the negroes of estates where I was concerned, excepting those who were regularly licensed by the authority of the magistrates of the country.

Were there any missionaries for the instruction of the slaves upon your estates other than those who were so licensed? — I am not aware that any of the missionaries came upon the estates for which I acted for that purpose, but I did not prevent any of the negroes from attending the missionaries.

It has been represented to this Committee that it is difficult for persons to obtain access to an estate in Jamaica, for the purpose of knowing what is going on there? — I have never known any difficulty in obtaining access to an estate in Jamaica, or in going to any part of an estate; no man of any character was prevented from going to any estate of which I had the management; and I consider that overseers are rather too fond of entertaining strangers on the estates at the expense of the owner, rather than of preventing them from coming on the estates.

Do you not know, that in a very considerable part of Jamaica there are no taverns, and that consequently the only mode by which a person journeying through the country could obtain board or entertainment at a place would be by his going to an estate? — There are few places of entertainment, and a very limited portion of travellers call at those places of public entertainment; and planters travelling seldom call at such a place; they go to an overseer's house, and a limited proportion of people in the country call at such places.

With respect to persons not known in the country, or not known by the overseers would any gentleman, or any other person wearing a respectable appearance, be refused admission to an estate, if he rode up to the overseer's house? — Never; persons are entertained in travelling in Jamaica much more than in this country by private individuals; nobody can travel here without considerable expense and stopping at public houses, but it is not the case there.

Would it be correct to represent that there was a difficulty of obtaining access to an estate, and of knowing what passed upon the estate? — I cannot think that there is any difficulty.

It has been represented by witnesses before this Committee, that there is a great disinclination to admit white strangers upon an estate, and that they have been turned off? — I never knew an instance of the kind, unless it were people of bad character; I did not like to see, and never encouraged white people of improper description: for instance, sailors who had run away from ships, and people of such description, who were travelling about the country; but I never prevented any man going to an overseer's house, or being entertained by an overseer, if he were of good character.

Would any overseer of good character refuse to give any information respecting an estate, and respecting what was passing upon the estate, to a person who inquired of him for that information? — No; I cannot figure any business where a man may more readily get information, so far as the overseer or other person upon the estate can give it to him. In this country, in many cases, the manufacturer is very reluctant to give information, and endeavours to make a secret of his business, but it is not the case there.

The question refers to cases in which persons may wish to ascertain whether there are instances of cruelty or misconduct occurring upon that estate? — I do not think that a person could go to an estate, and remain for any length of time upon it, if there were any cruelty to take place, without his hearing or knowing something of it.

Is not the general characteristic of the negro to complain, and make frequent complaints, and to make complaints with some degree of colouring as to the facts? — So much so, that I found it necessary, in the management of the negroes, to put restraint upon my feelings; and when I dismissed an overseer, I frequently concealed from the negro the cause of the overseer's dismissal, because I considered that it would be attended with mischief, by exciting turbulent negroes to annoy and to do that which might induce me to part with the overseer without real cause or might tend to the injury of the estate and to the business in general.

If a representation were made to you of the conduct of the overseer to the negro under his charge, being too severe, what would be the course, which you would pursue? —I considered it all times my duty to investigate into such complaint, and to act according to what appeared right.

You would consider it your duty immediately to investigate the complaint? — Certainly.

And if that complaint were well founded what would you proceed to do? -- If the negro was aggrieved and the overseer had done any thing outrageous or anything violent, I would dismiss the overseer, and if there were grounds for it, prosecute the overseer.

In the selection of overseers for the charge of an estate, is it the practice for the person having the management of the estate, or for the owner, to ascertain what has been the previous conduct of the overseer upon the estate which he had charge of towards the slaves upon it, with a view of ascertaining whether his character was such as to justify him in selecting such person? — Certainly, no man of common sense employs an overseer without knowing his character, and without knowing whether he is capable of acting properly in the situation in which he is placed; it is of very great importance when a man is to be entrusted with the charge of negroes upon a property.

Would it not be considered an objection to an overseer by the person who employed him, that the negroes upon the estate of which he had the charge had been in the habit of complaining of him? — Yes, if a man had acted with any degree of severity it would be an objection to him, and if I understood that a man was particularly disliked by the negroes I would have an aversion to him, because such would produce discontent, and if they were discontented, they would not perform their labour so well as otherwise.

Then it is the interest of the manager to have an overseer upon the estate who would act with kindness, and with whom the negroes would be perfectly satisfied?— It is the interest of the employer to make the negroes contented, ana what is the interest of the employer is consistent with the duty of the manager.

Will you state to this Committee, when cane hole digging is resorted to upon as estate, what is the usual day's work of the slave? — It depends exceedingly upon the situation, digging cane holes upon the side of a hill is less laborious than upon flat ground, there is less of the soil turned up.

Has task-work ever been practised to any extent at all upon sugar estates in Jamaica? — No; I never have known of it to any extent, I once thought of trying it; a man who came from America at the time of the independence of America, about 20 yean ago, wrote a pamphlet upon the subject, I bought 30 or 40 copies in order to distribute them to the different overseers upon the estates, and I often suggested and talked of the business, but I found it would have been an extremely difficult matter at that time.

You are not aware that it has been tried to any extent upon sugar estates? — No, I am not aware.

Does it take place upon coffee estates? — Yes; a negro gathering coffee is generally tasked to a certain quantity, in proportion to the quantity upon the trees, and to the negro's physical strength, that is left very much to the discretion of the driver, who knows much better what each negro can perform than the master or manager. If the negro feels he is aggrieved, or has too much to perform, of course he comes to the master to complain of the labour. The labour upon a coffee plantation during the season of gathering fruit is much harder than upon a sugar estate.

If the effect of au emancipation of the slaves should be that the sugar estates were no longer cultivated, is there any other purpose for which those sugar estates would be applicable? — No; the land of a sugar estate is applicable to no other species of culture that I am aware of; a small quantity may be applicable for provisions; but I know nothing else that it is adapted for; coffee is a plant that grows in the mountains and does not like the sea air.

On what soils does the sugar grow? — The lower the situation the richer the juice of the cane is.

What is the reason why it could not be applied to pasture and to fine lands?— Pasture would be of no value without the sugar, because there would not be a demand for cattle, unless there were sugar plantations to occasion it.

Would there then remain the means by which this emancipated population could be employed for any advantageous purpose? — I cannot figure any; the coffee fields are wearing out fast, and the proportion of coffee made must diminish; many of the coffee estates have been abandoned several years ago.

After a certain number of years may not those coffee estates be resumed? — Never at any period; when you once clear the original wood from the land the same wood will not again grow on that land; although the land will improve by the spontaneous growth and decay of vegetable matter so as to be fit for provisions, it never again becomes fit for coffee.

You said that the aged and infirm are generally provided for by their own families? — Yes, it is the case generally.

Then those negroes have very kind feelings towards their relations? — Yes, they are not devoid of feelings towards their relations.

And are willing to work for them? — Yes, and are willing to work for them, and to give them a portion of what they realize.

And even now that they are in a state of slavery they support their aged and infirm relatives?— Yes to a certain extent; and the master gives the same allowances to he old as he does to the young. I never allowed any distinction to be made.

But their sustenance is principally provided for them by their relations? — Not in all situations; for instance, in estates where grain is raised, the aged and infirm are allowed this article in proportion to their wants.

But where the negroes have grounds and have the means of availing themselves of their opportunities, they generally support them? — Yes, but if the negro cannot get that assistance the master supports him.

You say that the time of the negro of Jamaica goes out much sooner than the time of a labourer in this country, and that many fail at 50 years of age? — I would not say they fail at 50; but better information may be got upon that point from the returns, where the ages are sworn to.

To what do you ascribe that early failure of strength? — Many of the negroes are dissipated in their habits, and they probably fail sooner in that climate than a person does in this country.

You say that no person would cultivate sugar; you mean sugar as now cultivated by slave labour? — Yes.

You said that you yourself in crop time superintended the boiling-house, and that you endeavoured to keep your eyes open for 18 hours and a half out of the 24; what would have been your fatigue, if, instead of merely superintending, you had had to work during that time? — The negro is much better able to work than the European; and I could not perform the work, nor could any other European have performed the work, which the negro did; but the negro did not remain so long upon spell as I did. I remained 18 hours and a half because I was to be spelled by a lazy bookkeeper, and he did not always come to his time, as he should have done.

But you feeling fatigue in merely superintending, allowing for the difference between the black man and the white man, do not you think that the negro's fatigue must be very excessive? — No, I should not say that in that climate it is; and he had only to take spell a certain number of nights in the week, and I had to sit up every night in the week except one night.

You do not think that that has any thing to do with the negroes' time of labour going by so much sooner than that of persons in this country? — No, I do not think it has; I should say the people in this country labour much harder in various ways, and labour continuously for the whole year, whereas the negroes' labour is only alternate for four months on an average.

The alternation of the negroes' labour is, that in ordinary times he labours from sun-rise to sun-set, with the intervals for rest, and that when it is crop time, in addition to that work, he labours six hours in the night? — Yes; and there are many people in this country who work much harder, and for a continuance in the whole year; and the way to judge in such a case is to compare the labour there performed with the labour performed here.

You have mentioned the boatswain of the mill, what is the duty of the boatswain of the mill? — To see that the work connected with the mill is performed; he is generally one of the drivers.

Is his duty generally the same as the drivers in the field? — Yes; to see that the work is performed.

Has he a whip in the boiling-house at night? — He is always in the mill-house, be has nothing to do with the boiling-house; but he carries his whip with him.

You say that the labour is much lighter there than here; do you mean really, upon reflection, to say, that the slave in Jamaica, considering that when it is crop time, every alternate 24 hours he works 18 hours; and when it is not crop time, he works 12 hours, and a large portion of that cane hole digging; recollecting all that, do you still adhere to your statement that the labour of the slaves in the West Indies is lighter than that of the agricultural labourers in this country? — Yes.

When you say that, to what species of agricultural labour do you refer? — The agricultural labourer in this country labours longer for a continuance than the negro does; he labours for a longer time than the negro does, even in spell time, in several, instances. I would say that my cartmen are occupied as long in the summer months as the negro When he takes spell, or nearly so.

For how long a period of the year is there day-light in this country, to work 12 hours a day? — They work much longer than 12 hours a-day; it does not depend on the hours of day-light; for instance, a man who has the charge of a pair of horses, his horses are yoked by six o'clock, he continues working them till six in the evening, with short intermission; perhaps he has no time for breakfast, and I will say he has two hours for dinner; in those two hours he has his horses to clean and feed, and he has to provide his own meal and cook his own victuals; then at night he has to perform the same offices and to collect fuel and prepare his meal; fuel is collected and the negro labourer's victuals are prepared for him.

But by day he has no driver in the field with the whip at his back? — No; and I should be very glad if we could do without a driver with a whip in the field, placed over the negroes.

You say that there is less care about the negroes in Jamaica, than about persons in this country; do you mean to describe that as the general character? — Yes; I mean that he is in a great measure provided for, and there is less exertion necessary on his put to provide that which satisfies his wants; but a man in this country has much care, it consequence of the uncertainty of being able to provide for himself and his family; there are so many causes of uncertainty attached to his situation.

Do you think when a man is attached to a property, in a state of slavery, and sold at the will of his master and separated from his nearest connexions, and when he it still cheerful and gay, that that is any mark of his elevation of character, or of the low and degraded condition to which slavery has reduced him? — He is not brought up in the same ideas that a man here entertains, he is not civilized in the same degree; the Africans and the immediate descendants of Africans, are a very different people from the people of this country.

That is to say, that their habits and feelings are different, owing to their different situations? — Yes; in any respect the negro's temperament is different; we know no instance of their labouring in the same way as the people of this country; and yet we cannot altogether account for it, but such is the practical fact and result of past experience.

You stated their wants to be the same as those of people in this country?— Their wants are more easily provided for; nature does a great deal for them, whereas it is necessary for a man to perform much more labour in order to obtain subsistence for himself and family in this country.

Have you ever remarked any natural inferiority in the intellect of the negroes, compared with people in this country? — I should say that they were not equal to the European in their intellect; for example, I never knew one instance of a negro inventing one single ingenious or useful thing.

Your only reason for thinking them inferior in their intellect is, because in the situation in which they have been, they have not been inventors? — No; I only mention that as one particular point.

Are they not apt in acquiring knowledge as compared with people in this country? — They are perhaps quicker; the natives of warm climates are quicker in acquiring knowledge than the natives of cold climates, but they have not the same perseverance in their character, and do not attain to those intellectual acquirements that are usual in this country.

In making a bargain, or in estimating the value of money, are they very slow or very dull? — No, a negro in general is apt enough in making a bargain; he knows the value of money very well.

Are the negro children very slow in learning? — No, I should say not, that the Creole children are quicker than the children of this country; but they do not ultimately attain to the same firmness and perseverance of character.

They have their warm affections, and they are quick to learn, and with regard to artificial wants, if it should be stated that negro slaves are in many cases luxurious in their expenditure, is it not to be believed by this Committee? — It is the case with some of them; but we are not to take the situation of some for that of the many.

The Committee have heard of plum-cakes worth twenty guineas each being bought for weddings by the negroes, is such a thing incredible? — I dare say the circumstances may have occurred; they are frequently very extravagant in such cases.

Can you say that persons who have warm affections, and are willing to support their relations, who are quick to learn, and who are even extravagant in their expenditure will not work for daily bread and hire? — Yes; but they are only partial instances, where they will make any exertions to obtain luxuries or articles of gaiety.

If they have warm affections towards their relations who are dependent upon them, if they are quick to learn, and if they have a taste for the conveniences of life should you not say that all the inducements to human labour were comprised in that character? — I do not admit that any great proportion of the negroes have a taste for luxuries.

Then any gentleman who shall hare stated that negroes are luxurious in their expenditure by buying plum-cakes for their weddings of 20 guineas each, would give a fallacious representation? — I have not known an instance of that kind myself, of negroes giving 20 guineas for a plum-cake; but they are extravagant much beyond their means and will spend a great deal on such an occasion, and have perhaps little left; but I repeat that those instances are very few compared to the mass of negroes.

Are the Committee to understand that it is your impression that the great mass the slave population in Jamaica have no taste for the conveniences of life beyond the necessaries? — No, not what we would call the conveniences of life.

Is the negro satisfied with the clothing that his master gives him? — No, many not; they provide for themselves, and provide additional clothing for themselves.

Of the negroes under your charge at different times, amounting sometimes at the same time to 10,000, how many were satisfied with the clothing given by their masters? — I do not know exactly how to take that; there were scarcely any negroes who did not provide some portion of clothing for themselves beyond what the master gave them.

Is it of superior quality to that which the master gives them? — Very often.

Is it not generally so? — Very frequently.

Is not the clothing given by the master all that is necessary? — I should say that what is given by the master is all that is absolutely necessary considering the climate in which they live.

All beyond that is a convenience and not a necessary? — That depends upon the ideas of the negro, and one differs from another; some are fond of show, the many are not.

But recollecting the large proportion who are not satisfied with what their master gives them, recollecting that all beyond that which their master gives them is for convenience and not for necessity, their master giving them all that is necessary, are you still of opinion that they have no taste for articles of convenience? — I am of opinion that they have not that taste which is desirable, or which would induce them to labour to the extent that is required in a state of freedom.

Committee was appointed of