Mr. JAMES DUNLOP, Examined - 8th April 1824.

My residence is at Glasgow; I have works also in the county of Renfrewshire.

There was a meeting of the master spinners in Renfrewshire, who appointed me to come here, and give evidence respecting the effect of the combination laws; the propriety or impropriety of permitting the free exportation of machinery; the allowing artizans to go abroad; and to state their opinions as to the effect of the law against combination of workmen, so far as it prohibits them from combining to raise their wages, to regulate them, or to regulate their hours of working. The law seems with us to be quite inefficient; we find that men dislike them; and it creates dissatisfaction and anger among them. The meeting instructed me to say, and I think they instructed me right, that they did not consider them of any advantage at all to the masters. In fact, they do not know what to say about them; they do not know what would be the consequence of their being repealed; we cannot tell what might come into the minds of the men if they were repealed. At any rate the masters have not found them in any way beneficial, and, do not wish for their continuance; in fact they do not care any thing about them, they regarded them as quite ineffectual, and they have no objection to their repeal; but they could not tell what might be the consequences of the repeal.

Respecting the propriety of the laws which prohibit artizans leaving the country, the masters were clearly of opinion that the artisans should be prevented from leaving the country. They imagined that our manufacturing skill would be curried abroad by the men, and facilities given to foreigners, to enable them more effectually to compete with us in the markets of other countries. I know very well that the men do go abroad j I have been abroad, and have seen the men, who formerly worked for me, in America. They pretended to be farmers or labourers, and as such passed the Custom-house. I have never been on the continent of Europe. I have never heard of a Scotchman that went to the Continent; there may be some few there; but I think they generally go to the United States. In order to prevent artisans going abroad, it might be enacted that no person should leave the country, unless he produced a certificate at the Custom-house, signed by a quorum of justices, setting forth that he was not an artisan, and that he did not know how to construct any kind of machinery. The object of the masters when they met chiefly was, the prevention of machinery being exported. It was understood at the meeting that the laws, as they at present stand, were not efficient to prevent their going. And the meeting wished that Parliament should devise some new law, if they could, to prevent that taking place. As the law now stands, almost all articles are prohibited from being exported, that is, of machinery for manufacturing purposes.

A steam engine is not made for the sole purpose of manufacturing cotton; but it is often employed to set the cotton mills in work; consequently, I consider it a very important part of the manufacture, where water cannot be got. I have heard of their being exported; but I understand they are prohibited by law, but that an order iu council is easily obtained; but I cannot say I have attended at all to the laws respecting the exportation of machinery; I never troubled my head about the exportation of machinery; for I had nothing to do with it The opinion of that meeting regarding the exportation of machinery was, that all machinery might be freely exported, excepting such as was used for the express purpose of manufacturing cottons, linens, woollens, and silks; they thought that might be enough, and that the rest might be set free, so that the men might get employment, and the master; such as make steam engines and mechanical presses, reap the benefit of the trade; we have no objection to printing presses, wall coining presses. I mentioned to them coining presses, and they said certainly, let them have as many coining presses as they have a mind to; we shall have no objection to take their dollars. In short I come to state what I consider the interest of that particular business to which I belong. At that meeting they were all cotton spinners; and as such considered that it would be improper to permit the exportation of machinery for wool, silk, linen, and flax; but none of the persons interested in those trades were present. The reason that we would prevent this machinery going abroad is, we consider those as the most important branches of industry in this country, and in which we have acquired great skill and dexterity, and we wish to retain them as much as we can; and to throw every possible obstacle in the way of foreigners competing with us, in making cambrics and muslins, and so on, which this country exports; I think we should keep the manufacture of those articles, and also of cloth and linen, to ourselves, as much as possible and that we should prevent them from acquiring facilities front us so as to retain the foreign market as much as possible. .

With respect to the propriety of sending cotton yarn abroad, which enables the manufacturers to make cloth there, I think it is better to send the cotton yarn; I am a party concerned. I think if cotton yarn was not exported that would oblige them to become spinners, and we do not wish them to become spinners. I have no doubt, if we prohibit their getting machinery, they will become makers of machinery on their own account, and spinners too. Still I would keep them back for a while, and prevent them getting our men and tools. The cotton machinery on the Continent, as compared with the machinery in England, is, I understand, greatly behind us, not only in refinery, but in the art of working it.

I returned from America in 1822. Whilst I was there I had opportunities of seeing many of the cotton factories in Maryland, in Pennsylvania, in New Jersey, in Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and New York, and they were very inferior as compared with our manufactories in Scotland. I think they are in a similar state to what we were thirty years ago; there are some exceptions; I was in one of them that is doing pretty well. They were rather in a progressive state. Excepting a water-wheel that was made in Manchester, I think all the machinery was made in America, chiefly by Scotchmen. In the different factories I went in they were principally worked by men who had gone from this country. I think a great many of the artificers in the metals, such as iron and steel turners, and so on, were British. Those employed, in fact, to make the iron parts of the cotton machine were British; but very few of the spinners there were people who had left this country; they were chiefly all native Americans; and appeared to be very active and industrious; but they have not the skill we have; and I think we have got so much the start of all the world in machinery, that I think we shall keep it.

Supposing English machinery transported to America, and with the assistance of English foremen, the population of America would be soon taught to work in their factories, equal to the men in this country; but before they would acquire that, we should he ahead of them a long way again. I reason, comparing Scotland with England; we began the business of cotton spinning later, and we were of course behind; and we have been always behind. I mean to apply that observation to the population of other foreign countries. Nevertheless, the allowing the exportation of English machinery would have a tendency to advance them rapidly in their manufactures. And there is a great disposition on the part of the Americans to procure English machinery to a large extent, if they could get it. What will prevent the Americans coming into competition with us, is the high price of labour, of coal, and of iron : the iron is chiefly made from wood; and at a great expense. I do not think they can make iron so well as we can, notwithstanding their abundance of charcoal, The charcoal is a better article than coal for making the fire, I believe; and as to wages, the artizans there who can work in wood, receive perhaps front, a dollar to a dollar and a half a day i those who can work in iron, and steel, and brass, have, perhaps, from nine to twelve dollars a week; twelve is very high, but nine and ten is very common. The same class would receive in Glasgow at this time, from a guinea to 25s. a week, for the best men; the wages are high just now, the demand for machinery is great.

The expense of the board of an artizan at any of the factories, where I was, as compared to the expense in Glasgow, the same comfort and necessaries afforded to each, is very different, in different parts of America; in New-York, and about the great towns the expense of living is pretty high; in the country greatly lower, perhaps not a half; I should suppose, that about a dollar and a half, or from that to two dollars in the week for board and lodging, would be sufficient. I speak of the towns, where it is high; in New Jersey, going only twenty or thirty miles from town; the expense there in the country is perhaps a dollar; and those same men will earn from nine to twelve dollars a week. In America, the business of mule spinning is very little known, and I believe they are in a very low state; I do not know of my own knowledge what wages they have, but I saw two of my own men there, who were complaining; they said they hardly made as much as they did in Glasgow; the machinery is bad; it is chiefly throstler water twist spinning. I saw some mule spinning, though not to any great extent; and I saw some cloth woven from yarn, made in America. What the comparative expense of manufacturing that was, compared with what the same cloth could have been sold for in Glasgow, I could not exactly say; but that could be easily learned from the high duties which the Americans put upon their imports : the duty put open our cotton cloth going into America, I believe is more than 60 per cent; on some articles they suppose that a yard of cloth should cost 13 cents, then it pays an ad valorem duty, something very high; but I cannot speak to the amount exactly. Many of the masters of those cotton factories stated that if they could get English machinery over, they would order it, but they did not suppose it would be possible to get it. One of the principal obstacles in the way of the Americans, is their want of skill, rather than capital, I think; there is a want of capital too; but it is the want of skill chiefly that keeps them back.

The cotton business is carried on in our neighbourhood, to a very considerable extent in Glasgow; but nothing to what it is in Manchester. Our machinery is chiefly made in Glasgow; we get occasionally particular kinds of machinery from Manchester: the parts which we principally get from Manchester, are rollers and spindles, and the bobbin and flying machinery for roving : considerable orders have been sent to Manchester for those articles lately; I have got myself more than £1500 worth from Manchester within these few years; and I find a difficulty in obtaining bobbin, and fly frames, and rollers, at this very time; and it has existed more than a year, owing to the trade having been very brisk during that time; and we are extending our works very much. We get spindles from Manchester, as they are a difficult thing to be manufactured, it would appear, for we cannot make them in Scotland, so good. We make a great many rollers; they are chiefly made in Glasgow, but I do not think they are made so well in Glasgow as they are in Manchester; we have a manufactory of spindles in Glasgow, but the difference between those made in Glasgow and those made in Manchester is, the Glasgow spindles have not the elasticity of the Manchester ones; if they are bent they remain so. If I had a vice, I could tell whether the spindle on the table of the Committee, was a Manchester or a Glasgow spindle, but not with my hand. The bending, I think, it not only depends on the metal, but the hammering : they may be had as cheap in Glasgow as in Manchester, but not so good. They have been making spindles in Glasgow these thirty years; and during that time, we have not come to the same perfection; wherever a business is carried on to the greatest extent, it is in the greatest perfection.

THIRTIETH DAY.

Tuesday, 13^th April, 1824.

JOSEPH HUME, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR.

Mr. James Dunlop again called in; and further Examined.

[The same was read, as follows:]

 Sir, As you have got a character in your work that is abominable to every man under my authority, I uan determined to have him out of that. ______ _______ is his name, so I hope this will save me from going to extremities.